Shawn Marion on Suns retiring his jersey, near-trade to Celtics, more

Last week, NBA legend Shawn Marion traveled to Abu Dhabi tosupport the 2023 NBA Abu Dhabi Games, which featured two preseasongames between the Dallas Mavericks and Minnesota Timberwolves aswell as youth clinics and fan events.

Marion led a skill-development clinic for youth athletes fromDubai's NBA Basketball School — a year-roundbasketball program in the UAE for boys and girls ages 6-to-18. Healso judged a dunk contest, met with fans and took part in otherNBA events alongside Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Ray Allen, Tim HardawaySr., Gary Payton, Sam Perkins, Kenny Smith, Ronny Turiaf and SalahMejri.

Marion is an NBA champion, four-time NBA All-Star, two-timeAll-NBA selection and one of just five players in NBA history torecord 17,000 points, 9,000 rebounds, 1,500 steals and 1,000 blocks(the other four are LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Karl Malone andHakeem Olajuwon). The Phoenix Suns recently announced that they'llretire Marion's jersey this season.

While in Abu Dhabi, Marion joined me on my new show "Running Up TheScore" to discuss his legendary career, the Suns' decision toretire his jersey, Mat Ishbia's impact since buying the franchise,the globalization of the NBA, how the game has evolved, whetherhe'll get back into podcasting and more.

You’re currently in Abu Dhabi for theMavericks-Timberwolves preseason games and to host a basketballclinic with kids from the NBA Basketball School in Dubai. How isyour trip going?

Shawn Marion:"Man, the trip is goingamazing. This is a new culture for me; I've never experienced this,never been here. We're in a different part of the world right nowand, I mean, I can tell you this: this is a place I'll definitelybe coming back to. This is truly awesome. And, you know what,they're very passionate about [basketball]. I just had thismeeting; I just came from an office visit and they had like 250employees, but everybody spoke different languages! There were 16languages being spoken! That tells you how diverse it is here, andthey really pride themselves on that here. It's prettyamazing."

The globalization of the NBA has been a big priority forthe league for some time. From when you were playing to now, do yousee a big difference in terms of the NBA’s worldwide popularity andinternational support?

Marion: "Yes. I think as you look at the lay ofthe land right now, the NBA and basketball is a global sport. Butthe way that the NBA has been able to grow it, they're taking it toother levels. They're starting NBA Academies and having clinics allaround the world, and that just helps it grow even faster. Ofcourse, TV and social-media content help as well, but the levelit's growing at right now is unheard of."

The Phoenix Suns recently announced that they areretiring your jersey. Congratulations!

Marion: "Thank you!"

How did you find out that news and what was yourreaction?

Marion: "I'm gonna be very honest and candid.Mat [Ishbia] called me as soon as he took ownership of the team andhe was like, 'I'm not doing some of the shit that's been done[before]. I'm going to take care of you and reward you by retiringyour jersey. I'm a man of my word, and that's what I'm going todo.' That's exactly what he said, and he did! Yep, it was thatsimple."

Ishbia is quickly winning over fans — he’s spendingmoney, making it easier to watch games, honoring past legends likeyourself and so on. What do you think of Ishbia and the fresh startin Phoenix from an ownership perspective?

Marion: "I love it, man. I got a chance to seethe practice facility; it's literally not too far from the placethat I still have in Phoenix and I ain't been able to see [itbefore]. I ain't feel like... I feel like a weight was lifted offmy shoulders to a certain degree. He's making the transition soeasy. And he wants all the players who paved the way and set thefoundation for the Suns organization and helped build that teaminto what the city loves and admires [to be involved]. He justwants everybody to be a part of it, man, and I love it. I thinkit's awesome. He's doing some amazing things out there."

The Suns have so much talent with Devin Booker, KevinDurant, Bradley Beal and Jusuf Nurkic. What do you think of thisyear's team and do you think they can win it all?

Marion: "Man, I think they got a chance justlike anybody else, but, of course, their [championship hopes] areprobably a little bit more realistic than some other teams. I justhope they stay healthy. When you stay healthy, you give yourself achance. That's the thing. A lot of teams deal with injuries, andthey've been hit with the injury bug a little bit as well. Butthey've got Frank Vogel as the head coach out there now and he's adefensive-minded guy. They just made another trade and got someother pieces to add to it — Grayson Allen and Jusuf Nurkic. I thinkthat happened while I was out here; I was at a meeting when I gotthe alert and I was like, 'Wow! They ain't playing no games rightnow!' Listen, at the end of the day, he's trying to give himselfand the organization the best chance to win. That's what you gottado."

You obviously helped change the game and were ahead ofyour time. Overall, what are your thoughts on the modernNBA?

Marion: "Listen, it's run-and-gun, it'sfeast-or-famine right now. We set the foundation for what [thegame] is now. There's so much positionless basketball being played,and it's dynamic. You're seeing the transition and evolution ofwhat we started back in my Phoenix days during theSeven-Seconds-Or-Less era. That's what we started, and that's whatit is right now. And I don't see the game going back to twotraditional big men ever again."

Throughout the 2000s, not having a specific position wasa death sentence for a player; nobody wanted to be labeled a"tweener." Then, seemingly overnight, the NBA became obsessed with"positionless" players and the tweeners were suddenly the mostvaluable players. That's one of my favorite examples of how the NBAis always evolving.

Marion: "Here's the thing: people can say[they're positionless], but it don't mean they are. You know, to bea two-way player in this league is very rare, but to be apositionless player is even more rare. You could be a guy whocan go out there and guard 1 through 5, but to actually doit — willingly do it — is a big difference! A lot of guys probablycould do it, but they don't do it, you know? Right now,teams are playing positionless basketball because everybody'sswitching everything. Most guys don't really post up anymoreeither. It's all face-up game and jumpers. So, it's easy to justjump into that narrative and bandwagon, but if you look at the gameas a whole though, it's more of a guard-heavy game now than it wasprior to when we made that transition. It's just been a shift. Alot of bigs now don't post up anymore; they're face-up players[too]. That's the evolution of the game."

A few years so, you and I did some of the NBA WatchParties together on Clubhouse. I also love that video where you jumped on TwitterSpaces and educated fans about your career; it was incrediblyentertaining. You're obviously passionate about this game. Have youever thought of doing a podcast?

Marion: "Well, Alex, it's funny you say that. Iactually had a podcast with one of my guys in Dallas, so I was oneof the first guys to ever do it. I just didn't do any promoting orall of that stuff, but it was something that we did in the Mavsorganization kind of early on — like way before everybody startedgetting into podcasts. And it was great! But the thing aboutpodcasts is unless you got a set thing, you gotta create contentall the time, and I was so busy focusing on trying to be afather first. That was my lane. And then I dibbled and dabbled inTV a little bit and thought about doing some broadcasting work,but, like I said, my priorities shifted because I'm a hands-onfather. So, I couldn't keep doing it in Dallas because that was thesituation, but I have thought about reopening that window.

"I do have a different side of the game that I like to talkabout. I know narratives get created easily by the media, and weconsume them and we digest them. It becomes part of our thoughtprocess of that player, of that team or whatever it is. But I wastalking about this with one of my friends. I was telling him: it'seasy for a [former] player to say, 'I can do this or that.' Butwhat kind of player were you though? Because it's hard for a pointguard to tell how to guard a big, or for a big to tell how to guarda point guard. But when I say it, I actually guarded all of them! Idid it all! And I didn't just do it for a quarter or half aquarter. I did it for full games! So, when I sit there and I tellpeople that, people are like, 'Man, you know, I never thought aboutit from that standpoint.' I was like, 'Yo, I actually did this.'You know what I'm saying? Like, it's easy for somebody to say, 'Ican guard somebody,' or, 'Oh, I'm a two way player; I can guardthis player.' I'm like, 'Can you do it for a full game though?' I'mthe only person ever to do it for full games."

I love to ask players about big “what-ifs” from NBAhistory. There was a report a while back that you were nearlytraded to the Boston Celtics as part of a three-team deal thatwould have sent Kevin Garnett to Phoenix and picks to Minnesota. Isthat true and, if so, can you tell that story?

Marion: "It is true. But Phoenix wasn't gonnado the deal. They didn't think it was viable because they wouldhave to change their style of play instantly because we're twodifferent type of players. So, they didn't want it. KG was inMinnesota at the time, and I would've went to Boston and hewould've came here (to Phoenix). At the time, Boston was losing; Ithink they had a losing record at that time. I was like, 'Uhh...'But I mean, we have no control over that. Some of the rumors thatcome out about trades are actually true, but both sides have toagree to it. People throw out deals all the time, [teams talk] allthe time, so there's plenty of hypotheticals out there.

"But you wanna hear an untold true story? I never really fullyever became a free agent except my last year playing when I signedwith with Cleveland. When I signed with Dallas, it was asign-and-trade, so I was still under contract basically withToronto. It was a sign-and-trade deal, so I never really tested thefree-agency market like that. So, what happened was I was about tobe a free agent or get traded, and this was around that same timeas those KG rumors. Kobe [Bryant] called me and said, 'If you'rereally gonna go out on the market and it's a possibility [thatyou're changing teams], I want you to come out to L.A.' So, we wastexting and he was like, 'Yo!' It ain't happen because they didn'thave the money to pay me, but that's a story that a lot of peopledon't know about."

I love those kind of stories and it's always interestingto think how those potential moves could have changed NBAhistory.

Marion: "Oh, there were a lot of situations outthere like that where [trade talks] were open! It was pretty fun.When you look at the business of the NBA, man, the optimism and[hope] of what could possibily be is what makes it so fun anddynamic — een with the trade that just went down with DamianLillard. It's funny, Paul Pierce actually predicted that. He calledthat in July. He said, 'If I'm Dame, I would try to get toMilwaukee.' It's funny that he said that and I could see it [fromLillard's perspective]. But do I think they're better? Ehh, theylost a lot for that trade, you know? [Jrue Holiday]. Grayson Allenwas a great player for Milwaukee. He is a great pickup for Phoenix.He's a hell of a player, a great player, dude. Like, he does a lotof small stuff. He's a very tough guy. I like him. It's somethingabout him that I like. I like the little Duke dudes with thatlittle rough-and-rugged side! But he's one of those guys who canhit shots, he's gonna play defense and he competes. He's actually alot better than people give him credit for. He ain't got a chanceto really showcase his skills, but he can play. And if they use himthe right way, he can help them."

For sure. Thanks for your time, I really appreciateit!

Marion: "Anytime, man. You know, we have greatconversations and stuff. I might contemplate doing a podcast again.I gotta have the mobile equipment. We'll see; I don't know. I gottahave a great co-host. I like people who shoot [straight]. I toldthis to a reporter, so I'll give this to you. I told this guy whowas recording me yesterday: when you are doing your interviews, donot ask the same questions and stuff that somebody else asks. Donotask the same stuff."

I'm sure that gets really annoying.

Marion: "It's so annoying. It's okay topiggyback off of answers just to get some kind of content to createsomething in your own way. But don't ask the exact same questions.You sound you are a true fan. I know you are a true fan of thegame. Like, you really love this. And so [you] ask thequestions that you wanna know from someone in my position! Forgetabout the stuff that's already been out there already! Create yourown. We all got a story to tell."

For sure.

Marion: "And the thing is, I love my formerguys talking about ball and stuff, but some of them talk like theywas way bigger and better than they were. Some of these guys werebelow-average role players, but they talk like they weresuperstars! I'm like, 'What did you... How good was you? What didyou do?!' (laughs) I'm like, 'He was a role player!' Hewas a solid role player! And look, I became a role player. But youknow...

Yeah, but that was because of your longevity. You hadfour All-Star years before that.

Marion: "Yeah, that's about longevity andunderstanding that you gotta sacrifice to win. That's the biggestthing, you know? And I could have easily averaged such and such,but I was like, 'You know what? They don't need me to do that. Idon't have to do that. If we can win and I'm averaging 16, 17points, I'm cool with that. We gonna win, so I'm good with that.Let's win.' That was about getting them Ws.

"But that's something to think about though. You asked somegreat questions. That's the lane to go into. Those are the thingsto ask — the hypotheticals or something you [researched]. Like,'You know what, he was pretty good at this, how did you pick up onthat?' or, 'What's something that you did differently thaneverybody else?' Those are different questions, not the samequestions [we always hear]. We get repetitively asked the samequestions time and time again. It's boring. It sucks. I'ma behonest: it sucks. I hate it. Itsucks!"

I can't imagine how old that gets.

Marion: "One thing that everybody wasconstantly asking me about was my shot. Everybody seemed to wantask me about my shot. But listen, you know what's really messed upabout that though? One media person said it, so it went rampant andevery media person wanted me to replicate the answer, right?Whether I like it or not, or whether I enjoy it or not. I did somuch on the floor, but you wanna focus on something that nobodytalks about? Nobody in the league talks about that. Don't nobody inthe league shoot the same! ... I [used to get] pissed off, but nowI respond and it's fine. 'It don't matter, don't nobody shoot thesame. Next!' But why would you wanna talk about my shot, but thenyou won't talk about how I just had 25-and-15!"

Or that you shot 39% from three-point range oneyear!

Marion: "You wanna discredit me and what I didjust to talk about my shot? Got it. I totally understand. There'scertain lanes and narratives that will be pushed. I totally get it.I'm an owner now, so I see exactly what lane [they're in]; it's allmarketing strategies. I know how it works and I know who controlsit. Being on this side of the business, I know how things work now.But it's all good though. And it's all love. Thank you."

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.Watch the full conversationhere.

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